Re: OPEN: Discussion Topic

by Riot (MKE) Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:26 pm

I tend to agree more with AK, although that is an interesting perspective, Willy. I think we want to strive for emulating a BETTER NBA. An NBA where GM's from top to bottom are competent-- but maybe that is an unrealistic notion.

by LakeshowAK7 (OKC) Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:28 pm

WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:
LakeshowAK7 wrote:The only thing I will say about league activity is that it grows tiresome to see the same 7-8 teams writing articles. I know not everyone is a great writer, but about 10 GM's in CSL would log on, check their trades, read some threads and then do nothing - not even participate in the finals thread or anything.

What really frustrated me was spending 2-3 hours at a time working on the power rankings, and hardly getting any discussion going, except for those same 7-8 guys who would do the majority of the article writing. A league is what you make it, and while I understand some of us have closer ties to individuals than others, we need to trim the fat - or in other words, the GM's who literally don't bring anything to the league outside of being a warm body controlling a team.

But see here is where I vehemently disagree and here's why:

Everyone wants the CSL to resemble its real life NBA counterpart and part of what the NBA the NBA (or any sports League for that matter) is there are standout GM's and there are GM's you wouldn't even know existed due to the job they do or don't do with their franchise.

Irl the Bucks, Nets, Pistons, Bobcats, and Magic have or had some of the worst GM's in the League due to either their poor management of funds or just not getting good value or good talent on those said franchises even after Finals runs etc and or mishandling of star players.

Teams in bad positions usually aren't exciting or have zero exciting to talk about or even when they do have something to talk about, it's kinda hard to reply to a storyline of a franchise with subpar players who don't perform well so call it what it is but yuedar, bazemore, and even bt stuck it out, I respect those guys more than the GM's of GS and Cleveland who actually have good teams and could care less about posting or even writing an article or what have you unless likely mandated by the League.

Those are the GM types who I personally would stay away from and again, the decision has already been made, didn't agree with it but it's accepted.

And btw it's obvious yuedar did a great job, he got the #1 pick (which I hope doesn't get traded with the gm who switched teams "vision" of what he feels the team should be), he drafted Giannis Antekountpo (close enough if spelled wrong), drafted Nerlens Noel, and cleared tons of cap room, very solid job and again, Bazemore initially went with Dragic, SG (?), SF (I think Prince?), Millsap, Marc Gasol, when it didn't work when he started getting scrutinized for his trades (Dragic is a terrible PG etc) he tried a different PG (Nash I think) then blew up the team and imo got taken advantage of in those trades and ended up with what Memphis has now. Both guys had small consistent participation throughout the season.

GS, Cleveland GM's had sparse participation with an underachieving team and a very very good team while Jestor had huge participation but left, came back, and left again.

No League (sim or NBA) is gonna have every single GM do a great job while also having maximum participation and to expect that is an unreal expectation imo, it always starts that way then once the season progresses and guys see how their team perform is usually the determining factor and I think the timing was wrong to let all of those guys go at once when other teams still weren't full and I just hope the new GM's that come on board don't go thru the typical cycle of the other "new" GM's that sign up, get a warm welcome then dip after about a month maybe.

/ $.02

I agree with you on the Cleveland/Golden State front.

And my only rebuttal to you in regards to Orlando and Memphis would be... Why didn't they get more actively involved with the league then by writing league articles/generating league discussion in sim threads or the like?

There are other sim leagues where 95% of the league is wholeheartedly engaged, why can't this league be the same?

I honestly could care less if a GM comes in here and he isn't elite, I care more about contributing to the league - which I would assume is why some of the guys who we thought would be here aren't.

by Jake0890 (WAS) Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:29 pm

I definitely don't agree with Willy here, it sounds like you're just telling everyone to accept mediocrity because it's too hard to prevent/stop it.

by WillyJakkz (ORL) Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:37 pm

No man, it sounds like I was defending the guys who had poor teams for an entire season and stuck with it and not defending the guys who had much better and more talented teams and didn't care.

It sounds like just because someone writes about their team it doesn't make it more appealing to be involved in their team or for others to be more involved in their team.

Usually those guys articles were met with "Good luck to you next season" "You gotta get a star player" "Hope you get a good draft pick" "Be more diligent in trades" type of responses which is a very realistic response when one has a team that isn't doing well, there's only so much you can say.

But if that's your interpretation that's fine as well because it is all an opinion.

@Lake:
But those guys did actually comment in the Playoffs and Finals threads, whether League mandated or not they did post something.

May not have been up to some standards obviously but it was participation however minimal vs not participating at all.

by Jake0890 (WAS) Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:41 pm

WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:No man, it sounds like I was defending the guys who had poor teams for an entire season and stuck with it and not defending the guys who had much better and more talented teams and didn't care.

It sounds like just because someone writes about their team it doesn't make it more appealing to be involved in their team or for others to be more involved in their team.

Usually those guys articles were met with "Good luck to you next season" "You gotta get a star player" "Hope you get a good draft pick" "Be more diligent in trades" type of responses which is a very realistic response when one has a team that isn't doing well, there's only so much you can say.

But if that's your interpretation that's fine as well because it is all an opinion.

I guess I see what you're saying, but define "stuck with it". I honestly can't recall them really participating in anyway during the season. Bazemore got more active near the end (in the playoffs) but I still can't recall and article or anything like that those two wrote (Baze did write a few wiretaps though).

I dunno, I feel like having a bad team isn't an excuse for not contributing. No matter how you slice it, I didn't feel like they really cared or put much effort in.

by WillyJakkz (ORL) Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:57 pm

Well I kinda explained (at least my opinion) of why I think baze stepped back, yuedar I'm not sure, maybe he was more immersed in trying to get the 1st pick and controlling his cap?

Irl here in Orlando we had a GM who was very public (Otis Smith) about his feelings towards players etc (interview-wise) which would be the equivalent to an article and the team after perhaps a fluke Finals run did nothing afterwards but made bad moves, we now have a GM (Hennigan) who doesn't say a word hardly to the media (the equivalent of little participation) and the team ha a bigger buzz around it because the moves he did make (trading Dwight for Vucevic etc) has been more successful etc than many thought and he's also put our team in a great financial position.

My point is just because you're not necessarily heard doesn't mean you're not making a sound.

I digress though, decision is made so this is a moot point, just don't wanna welcome in guys who leave after the draft/ early season but in the end it's a chance we gotta take so let's get to it and do it.

I asked a couple of realgm guys from GMaT Game, awaiting response.

by **Rizzo (NY)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:07 pm

WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:My point is just because you're not necessarily heard doesn't mean you're not making a sound.

Willy, I totally agree with what you are saying. Just because a GM is quiet doesn't mean they aren't doing their job and doing it well. But, when the league is supposed to be built on articles and media, being quiet doesn't exactly constitute to getting your job done. As a GM in the CSL, I assume my responsibilities are, at the very least, to make moves in managing my team for the better of my franchise and to write articles about my team or the league. You can't do just one of those.

But, like you said, decision has been made and we are moving on. Let's use this as a day we remember for a while and make strides to urging on new managers to fulfill all of their responsibilities. Very Happy

by **Myles (SAS)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:11 pm

Here's the thing and why your analogy (Willy) kind of falls apart. Every member here isn't just a GM. You are the GM and the media team, including (but not limited to), the newspapers, the PR team, the player interviews, the coach interviews, etc. I almost entirely write my articles in the style of a newspaper following my team, not from the GM's mouth itself. So REGARDLESS of what your team is doing, there is stuff to write about. Player rankings, power rankings, rookie rankings, a look around the league, an in-depth writeup about another team or franchise, writing about prospects, writing about the upcoming FA class, writing about individual accomplishments, milestones, awards, the list literally could go on forever. The way I see it, if you aren't writing something, find something to write about. It doesn't have to be about your team. Sometimes there isn't anything to write about your team. That's fine. Write about someone else's.

As for the GMs, we did let go the GSW GM, Cleveland we gave another chance because he's been active in the past and he explained to us why his activity was low, and suffice to say, it's certainly an acceptable reason. We didn't fire bazemore or yuedar or mattybriand due to team performance, I couldn't care less about that. If one GM is active and his team goes 0-82, and another GM is inactive and goes 82-0, the second GM is getting fired, not the first one.

by WillyJakkz (ORL) Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:11 pm

WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:How much wiggle room do we have during negotiations within the engine since we're not using Player Agents?

Will they give a heads up if they do not like your offer or will they just simply sign with another team without warning or will the rumors reported like last year be what we should go by?

I ask this because I do not have the game and would really hate to lose a player due to a lack of communication withint the actual game engine between Player, Agent, and Team.

This probably got overlooked in all the hooplah.

by **Myles (SAS)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:11 pm

If you notice in the "Expectations of a CSL GM" thread, not a single expectation is linked to your job as a GM. It's all linked to your job as a member of the media team.

by **Myles (SAS)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:12 pm

WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:
WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:How much wiggle room do we have during negotiations within the engine since we're not using Player Agents?

Will they give a heads up if they do not like your offer or will they just simply sign with another team without warning or will the rumors reported like last year be what we should go by?

I ask this because I do not have the game and would really hate to lose a player due to a lack of communication withint the actual game engine between Player, Agent, and Team.

This probably got overlooked in all the hooplah.

My answer is on page 3.

by **Rizzo (NY)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:17 pm

WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:
WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:How much wiggle room do we have during negotiations within the engine since we're not using Player Agents?

Will they give a heads up if they do not like your offer or will they just simply sign with another team without warning or will the rumors reported like last year be what we should go by?

I ask this because I do not have the game and would really hate to lose a player due to a lack of communication withint the actual game engine between Player, Agent, and Team.

This probably got overlooked in all the hooplah.

I forget who answered, but he said it would be handled the same as last year with rumors. I believe the quote was pretty close to: "make friends with someone who has the game and can help you out with this." As a rival Western Conference general manager, don't even THINK about asking me! Surprised

by WillyJakkz (ORL) Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:23 pm

Rizzo (NO) wrote:
WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:
WillyJakkz (HOU) wrote:How much wiggle room do we have during negotiations within the engine since we're not using Player Agents?

Will they give a heads up if they do not like your offer or will they just simply sign with another team without warning or will the rumors reported like last year be what we should go by?

I ask this because I do not have the game and would really hate to lose a player due to a lack of communication withint the actual game engine between Player, Agent, and Team.

This probably got overlooked in all the hooplah.

I forget who answered, but he said it would be handled the same as last year with rumors. I believe the quote was pretty close to: "make friends with someone who has the game and can help you out with this." As a rival Western Conference general manager, don't even THINK about asking me!

by Jake0890 (WAS) Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:43 pm

Man, having to rely on rumors really sucks. I was looking forward to the player agents to make free agency a level playing field, and it's disappointing it's not going to happen.

Oh well, I'll work around it.

by WillyJakkz (ORL) Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:22 pm

And just to clarify from the player extension thread, only certain players who meet the criteria are still only ext eligible?

Also where would I go to exercise my Bird Rights on Andre Iguodala?

Appreciate it.

by **Rizzo (NY)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:30 pm

Jake0890 (MIN) wrote:Man, having to rely on rumors really sucks. I was looking forward to the player agents to make free agency a level playing field, and it's disappointing it's not going to happen.

Oh well, I'll work around it.

I was really excited to introduce PA's to the league as well. Would have been a whole different ball game when it came to free agency. I think I remember seeing that we would use them for in-season extensions to get a feel for them and then implement them fully next season.

by orangeparka (MIA) Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:37 pm

Jake0890 (MIN) wrote:Man, having to rely on rumors really sucks. I was looking forward to the player agents to make free agency a level playing field, and it's disappointing it's not going to happen.

Oh well, I'll work around it.

What do you mean by this? Doesn't PA make it less of an even playing field, i.e. teams like MIA would have even more of an advantage?

by orangeparka (MIA) Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:42 pm

On the whole GMs getting fired thing, we're not even looking for guys who are super active writers.

We want guys who give a shit about the league. Who actually care about what happens and what's going on with other teams. You can tell who those are by the comments made.

Yeah, some of the fired GMs did comment from time to time, but you could tell they were all forced one-liners because of the constant warnings. We don't want guys who just check in with their team everyday and not genuinely give a crap about anything else.

Look at Rizzo, I think he's commented in damn near every article, and in Year 1 and towards the end of Year 2, he didn't really have anything going for his team either.

Still, you could tell he was genuinely interested in happenings around the league, and that's what we want most, even moreso than just writing a forced article about your team once in a while.

by Jake0890 (WAS) Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:42 pm

orangeparka (MIA) wrote:
Jake0890 (MIN) wrote:Man, having to rely on rumors really sucks. I was looking forward to the player agents to make free agency a level playing field, and it's disappointing it's not going to happen.

Oh well, I'll work around it.

What do you mean by this? Doesn't PA make it less of an even playing field, i.e. teams like MIA would have even more of an advantage?

Maybe if we took big-market/small-market into account, but it was already said that would not factor in to the decision.

And what I meant by even playing field was non-game owners vs. game owners. Without the game, people are forced to go on "rumors" versus getting feedback straight from the agent in the player agent system. And there's a lot of nice people in the league that I'm sure could help me out here and there with free agency, but I don't want to have to bother/rely on them for information. It's not fair for them for me to freeload off them either.

Honestly, I don't see why a forum switch would stop player agents. I can guarantee none of the agents got fired in the switch so I don't see what the problem is (not to 2nd guess the commishes).

by Jake0890 (WAS) Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:44 pm

Also, on the topic of getting new GMs - Jamal's old league had some pretty active guys that could work. Since his league ended, I've lost the old URL for the league as well as losing the contact information for those guys, but maybe Jamal still knows and he could invite 'em.

by orangeparka (MIA) Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:48 pm

Jake0890 (MIN) wrote:
orangeparka (MIA) wrote:
Jake0890 (MIN) wrote:Man, having to rely on rumors really sucks. I was looking forward to the player agents to make free agency a level playing field, and it's disappointing it's not going to happen.

Oh well, I'll work around it.

What do you mean by this? Doesn't PA make it less of an even playing field, i.e. teams like MIA would have even more of an advantage?

Maybe if we took big-market/small-market into account, but it was already said that would not factor in to the decision.

And what I meant by even playing field was non-game owners vs. game owners. Without the game, people are forced to go on "rumors" versus getting feedback straight from the agent in the player agent system. And there's a lot of nice people in the league that I'm sure could help me out here and there with free agency, but I don't want to have to bother/rely on them for information. It's not fair for them for me to freeload off them either.

Honestly, I don't see why a forum switch would stop player agents. I can guarantee none of the agents got fired in the switch so I don't see what the problem is (not to 2nd guess the commishes).

Huh? What advantage does having the game give you? All the rumors, and even more Myles/Dylan-generated rumors are posted.

Looking at my posts this looks a little accusatory haha, but I'm just genuinely curious because I don't know.

by Jake0890 (WAS) Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:53 pm

orangeparka (MIA) wrote:
Jake0890 (MIN) wrote:
orangeparka (MIA) wrote:

What do you mean by this? Doesn't PA make it less of an even playing field, i.e. teams like MIA would have even more of an advantage?

Maybe if we took big-market/small-market into account, but it was already said that would not factor in to the decision.

And what I meant by even playing field was non-game owners vs. game owners. Without the game, people are forced to go on "rumors" versus getting feedback straight from the agent in the player agent system. And there's a lot of nice people in the league that I'm sure could help me out here and there with free agency, but I don't want to have to bother/rely on them for information. It's not fair for them for me to freeload off them either.

Honestly, I don't see why a forum switch would stop player agents. I can guarantee none of the agents got fired in the switch so I don't see what the problem is (not to 2nd guess the commishes).

Huh? What advantage does having the game give you? All the rumors, and even more Myles/Dylan-generated rumors are posted.

Looking at my posts this looks a little accusatory haha, but I'm just genuinely curious because I don't know.

I was under the impression that the only rumors posted here are the ones Dylan/Myles created (wasn't around for last FA), maybe I was wrong.

If not, there may not be a huge advantage, but Myles seems to think the game is easier too: "I strongly recommend becoming friends with a GM who does and asking them to help you out with FA bids."

In any case, pitching to agents is just far better than working with the game.

by **Myles (SAS)** Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:42 pm

We post all the rumors that the game posts, plus extra rumors we make up ourselves.

Having the game makes things much easier in 100 different aspects, free agency being one of them. I have always been a proponent of people just buying the game, especially since purchasing it gives you two licenses and you can split the cost with another GM and each get one license.

The extension rules will not be in effect, as we will have a PA taking care of extensions.

by WillyJakkz (ORL) Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:48 am

Myles (SAS) wrote:We post all the rumors that the game posts, plus extra rumors we make up ourselves.

Having the game makes things much easier in 100 different aspects, free agency being one of them. I have always been a proponent of people just buying the game, especially since purchasing it gives you two licenses and you can split the cost with another GM and each get one license.

The extension rules will not be in effect, as we will have a PA taking care of extensions.

For clarification on this post are you saying I will be able to negotiate an extension for Iggy now whereas before I was unable to due to his tenure/ last year's contract value?

by orangeparka (MIA) Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:48 am

BTW I'm guessing we won't have a cbox here?

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